Poole Podcast Episode 1: Cultivating the Entrepreneurial Spirit

Jenny Hammond: Welcome to the Poole Podcast, a Think and Do conversation about the relationship between academics and industry. Each episode, we share research and ideas from inside of the classroom, from our incredible NC State faculty and explore how it’s being translated into practice. I’m your host, Jenny Hammond, chief marketing and communications officer here at Poole college.

Let’s dive on in.

On our inaugural episode today, I’m very excited to introduce two superstar guests. Both influencers in their own respective fields. First, it’s my pleasure to introduce the Dean of the Poole College of Management: Dr. Frank Buckless. Dean Buckless has been with NC State since 1989, where he was served many roles in the department of accounting, including department chair.

In 2019, Chancellor Woodson appointed him the fifth Dean of the Poole College of management, and I’m proud to have him here and call him Box. Welcome, Dean Buckless.

Dean Frank Buckless: Thank you, Jen. 

Jenny Hammond: Also with us today, an entrepreneur, who you may have seen in Forbes Inc Magazine, MSNBC, Vanity fair, The New York Times, pretty much everywhere.

She’s built two businesses from scratch and sold them for a combined 1.5 billion. Yes, that’s billion with a B. She’s the CEO of Sprout Pharmaceuticals and the founder of this Pink Ceiling. And we’re super proud to have her on the Poole Advisory Board, Cindy Eckhart. Welcome to the Poole Podcast. 

Cindy Eckert: Thank you, Jenny.

I’m on the inaugural. You guys know how I like being first and Dean Buckless, it’s always good to spend time with you. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Thank you, Cindy. We’re going straight to learn more from you. 

Jenny Hammond: Well, let’s get started. So I want this conversation to be about entrepreneurship and how Poole College is cultivating budding founders and guiding them to be as one day successful as Cindy.

Dean Buckless, tell us a little bit more about the entrepreneurial spirit at NC State and at Poole College. And what have you seen from the faculty and students that are helping develop our next season of entrepreneurs? 

Dean Frank Buckless: Great. So let me just start by saying we really have a great mix of faculty at our college that have great academic as well as professional experience, and they really have a passion for our students. You know, the tagline for NC State is think and do, and I really believe that think and do mentality really attracts a different type of person, to NC State because you come to NC State because you don’t want to do things like everybody else has done them. You want to try new things.

You want to be distinctive and different. And so we’re very fortunate that we’ve attracted a large group of faculty who just totally buy into what we are trying to do, and really are trying to, to not be the same, same old, same old school. Across the street or down the road,  we are trying to be different and distinctive.

So, you know, I really think that the think and do mentality really helps to drive innovation and new approaches within our college. You know, if I look at how we’re trying to incorporate entrepreneurial mindset and thinking within our curriculum, you know, it, it really starts with us trying to make sure that we help our students to look at how they can see and, you know, see opportunities, evaluate opportunities, build opportunities, and communicate them, to their stakeholders. So we want to make sure that our students are incorporating those types of activities within the curriculum and the co-curricular so that they’re able to do that. We do want it so that our students really have what I would call a, you know, a very positive mindset and that, that they’re, you know, they believe they can do anything.

And, you know, a lot of times when you’re an entrepreneur, you’ll hear people say, well, I don’t, I’m not an entrepreneur. I can’t do that. Well, we want our students to really believe no matter who they are, no matter what their background was, they can be an entrepreneur and they can see it’s just going to take time, effort, and maybe reframing questions and opportunities.

So, because we think it should be a really great entrepreneur. You really have to be resilient and you have to be able to overcome obstacles. I mean, Cindy is a great example of somebody who didn’t let obstacles hold her back and hold her organization’s back. And we want that for our students. So we’re trying to build that into the curriculum.

And we do that through the courses we offer through the mentoring we offer our students as well as the immersive experiences we offer our students, both with our practicum experiences, as well as other opportunities on campus. 

Jenny Hammond: So Cindy, kind of following up with that we’re talking about perseverance and resilience, you created the Pink Ceiling. Tell us a little bit about what that is and how you’re supporting rising entrepreneurs. 

Cindy Eckert: So the Pink Ceiling is about paying it forward. It was the proceeds from my sales. I built two companies successfully and sold them and I looked at the landscape and I said, what will my best work going forward be? And it was very clear to me that it would be reaching my hand back and pulling the next generation there quicker than I got there myself, by being able to share some of my lessons learned some of my abject failures, knowing that they shouldn’t step on that landmine cause I did to step left. And that’s really what the Pink Ceiling is all about.

So specifically I look for businesses run by women or for women that are disruptive in this space. Often first in a category and real, I think game-changers in conversation too. What matters to me is not only that we see these kinds of innovative products in this world, but we change everybody’s mind, just like Dean Buckless was talking about, about who has the next billion-dollar idea.

And that’s really my love, inside of the Pink Ceiling. It’s not really about giving money. There are a lot of people who can write checks. There’s a lot of capital actually you know, all across this country and the world that you can get to support entrepreneurial ideas. I think what you need to look for is who’s going to roll up their sleeves right next to me and really help me get there.

And that’s what we’re proud of doing. 

Jenny Hammond: Dean Buckless, thinking about that and you talked to industry often about what they need of our graduates. And you think about those skills in particular, maybe even soft skills. What are some of the things that you think are pertinent that as an institution, we need to make sure that we’re providing our students to be successful in the entrepreneurial space.

Dean Frank Buckless: Sure. Sure. So, you know , when I think about what we need to do, and what I hear from industry leaders is we really need to make sure that our students are creative, innovative , that they are good problem solvers and they really have good communication and interpersonal skills. So that’s what we’re really trying to bring.

Those are the skills they’re going to feed you for life and they’re going to keep you strong for life. So we’re really trying to design our curriculum to focus more on that. You know, knowledge is important, but it’s not as important as it used to be. You, you have to have a certain foundation and knowledge. It’s really that, that creativity, that innovation, that problem solving, and then your ability to communicate it.

I mean, if you have the greatest idea in the room, but you can’t communicate it and you can’t get people to understand, the concept, well, then you’re not going anywhere with it. So we’re really trying to ingrain that in our curriculum here at NC State. 

Cindy Eckert: I have to attest that it’s working because there’s no, there are no nights more fun for my team than when we have the students from the entrepreneurship program to the Pink Ceiling and they get up and present their ideas.

And we’re really just, we’re captivated by I think their ability to communicate at their positivity. You know, if there’s something we all walk away so inspired and jazzed up just from the energy that comes into that room. Sani is one I’ll call out right now. Just that they have done such an, I mean, to watch  their courage that they actually cold called Jennifer Hyman from Rent the Runway said that there is a real market gaps here for, you know  for clothing for all of the women raised their American but going to traditional Indian gatherings, like they’re looking for, they don’t want to call back to their grandmother in India and say, can you find me a dress?

And therefore you know, she really convinced her of the market gap that they didn’t see and actually to get on Rent the Runway is extraordinary to watch them now and help mentor for them with other influence, wearing their fashions on popular Netflix shows and things like that really is quite rewarding.

I mean, I have millions of those. Who’ve stood in my, in the office. And talk to me, I, I love to say you know, if only Professor Sheets had been my professor, like, gosh, what would I have been able to do? They’re so far ahead of me, these students than where I was at their age, it’s actually remarkable.

So I can only imagine I have high expectations for what they’re all going to accomplish. And I have to brag for a second because I will note that Dean Buckless did not say this at the top, but this is a top 20 entrepreneurship program in the country.

And during the time that I’ve been fortunate enough to work with, I’ve watched you continue to climb in the ranks. And I think, you know,  I’m firsthand somebody who hires students out of NC State. And they really do have this very special attitude. So I congratulate you for that. I love watching it in action. 

Dean Frank Buckless: And then let me just add a little bit there, Jenny. And one way we really try to differentiate it. It’s what Cindy’s doing is by she’s sharing her expertise and giving our students the opportunities  to work with a very high profile person that’s been very successful and you know, that,  mentoring and that ability to work with somebody that really has, has gone through it all is it really helps our students to be different in the marketplace.

So thank you for your partnership with us. 

Jenny Hammond: Love it, Cindy, what would you say if you can take yourself back to being 21 years old. Just for a moment. Dean Buckless, you can go there too go back to being 21.

Dean Frank Buckless: Much longer for me.

Jenny Hammond: Not that long. What would be a piece of advice? Would you give your younger self, knowing what you know now you clearly have kind of busted through that ceiling and taken some challenges, but do you look back and think, gosh, I wish I would’ve done this. Or if somebody would’ve told me this, or if I could have learned this at an earlier stage, maybe things would be different.

 What would you say to that? 

Cindy Eckert: Well, the number one question I would ask myself is what are you waiting for? And I think we so often sit in a little bit of fear, a little bit of uncertainty instead of just going for it. And I think the answer is go, it’s never going to be exactly as you imagined. And that’s part of your skillset is adapting to those changes in the, I mean the whole world was thrown a curve ball last year.

Right? We all had to adapt and figure that out. So just get started is the first part I would tell everybody. Success does not come from having all the answers. It comes from having the courage. And if I was 21, I would also tell myself, get in the room with people you can learn from. It will be the most important thing.

And actually it’s less about having this design on, this will be my profession. Here’s what I’m going to go do. This is who I want to learn from and chase that relentlessly with curiosity. And it will determine your ultimate success. 

Dean Frank Buckless: I totally, yeah. I agree with Cindy and what she is saying, you know, I really think you can’t wait for perfection. If you want to wait for perfection, that you’re just never going to move. So you’ve got it. You’ve got to know it’s not perfect, but I’m going to keep moving and then you’re going to have to be agile and adjust as you know, information and, and things change in front of you.

 Yeah, I’d also would say, you know, I do think it’s important to, to recognize you don’t have all the answers, but if you really put great people around you, don’t be afraid about putting the best people around you. I always try to put better people around me than me, who I think are, you know, have an edge on me because they’re going to make me better and, and go for those experiences, get the experiences so you can do the things you want to do.

Jenny Hammond: We talk about often internally about, you know, the jobs that don’t exist yet, right? The future skills that our graduates are going to need. Cindy, in your opinion, what are some of those skills? We know analytics is certainly, definitely one of them, but what are you seeing as something from your seat as a CEO, but also just as an entrepreneur for students to be successful.

Cindy Eckert: I would say there’s curiosity, I’m going to call it a skill. Because I actually think that’s a practice day in and day out. And it is what Dean Buckless said, not being so sure you know everything, what a boring day it would be if I woke up tomorrow and thought I knew it all.

So how are you constantly chasing answers? And actually when I interview people to join my organizations, I’m really teasing out. Like how do they perpetually learn. Because we’re gonna be, we’re going to have to innovate, right? Curiosity is at the basis. You’re going to be more innovative if you’re open-minded, you’re always listening.

I think that’s a big piece of it. Creativity is the name of the game. I think these days, especially in a post COVID world you know, you think about that creativity one for the businesses who were able to figure it out most quickly. So that is a daily practice. I will bring up a book that I love.

I don’t know if you’ve read it. And it’s called a Curious Mind by Brian Grazer. And what’s wonderful is that he talks about actually the discipline of having a curiosity conversation weekly. So he makes a point on his schedule to meet with somebody who’s from a completely, he’s a Hollywood producer, a very successful one at that.

And he meets with people from outside of his industry to learn from them, because that is something that you can apply. And that’s something I’ve always done in our, in our companies. And we did, we build out a customer service group and by the way, there’s no pharma company that’s really that good at customer service so I didn’t want an opportunity to go learn from even my peers. So I went and learned from Zappos and I’d actually, when Tony Shay passed this year, it was such a great loss you know, in the entrepreneurship world, but he was the master, if you will, of customer service. So I went and learned from him and I think that’s something that students can be doing even in a more accessible way than when I was 21, because they have the internet and they have, you know, people, really one finger click away on Instagram and everything else to go learn from.

Jenny Hammond: Cindy, I crash coursed last night and I, I watched your TedTalk in Raleigh, and you talked a lot about empathy. 

Cindy Eckert: Yeah. 

Jenny Hammond: A skill set that’s often not necessarily taught. It’s kind of ingrained in people, but it’s one that we use so frequently more so than we probably know. Talk a little bit about how you use empathy, kind of in your role as a leader, within an organization, and maybe even how it played a part in your, your entrepreneurship ventures. 

Cindy Eckert: Yeah. Well look, I think my talk was the DNA of a rule breaker and and I don’t break the rules of law and order I’ll say to everybody, but there are all of the unwritten rules that exist and it’s because none of us have begged the question, but why, like, why is it just that way?

Why do we just accept that it’s that way? And I think what really drives you to challenge? Is in fact empathy, it’s feeling the injustice in it. It’s feeling the inequity. And that was certainly what drove me in a lot of my career in women’s health was a double standard in the field of medicine, but empathy is going to [00:16:00] be a crucial part of the C-suite going forward because I think if you look at our world in so many ways, we run it by spreadsheet. Right? We have reduced our world to what is the spreadsheet? And actually data is informed very differently through the lens of empathy. So there are very best leaders will be able to take the data because of course we need that to make good decisions, but overlay, I think the human element of what that impact will be and what the right ultimate decision is.

So, you know, empathy is always, I think living a life of putting yourself in someone else’s place. And just seeing it from their perspective and being open-minded enough to do that. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Yeah. So when Jenny saw it yesterday, she sent it to me. So I watched it last night and you know, probably the biggest takeaway I took from that was empathy can be one of your best influencers.

If you really want to influence change in a good way, you have to go. You have to leave with empathy. That is kind of my takeaway from that. 

Jenny Hammond: I love it, which I will note for the record. You’re already very good at Dean Buckless. You’re very empathetic. I guess, kind of shifting a little bit, but still using the tone of empathy is as talking a little bit about one of our values in the college, and that is the culture of diversity and inclusion and perhaps Dean Buckless, you can talk a little bit about why DNI matters at Poole and why it matters and entrepreneurship. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Sure. So, you know, let me just say, you know, first it’s the right thing to do, right. You know, we’re NC State, we’re a land grant university, and we really are trying to make sure we’re making our community stronger and we’re creating great opportunities for our whole population. And so we need to bring in that diversity and make sure all of that diversity has opportunities. So I just think that’s imperative to create a great society. We have to do that, but more importantly, or not, maybe more importantly, but you know, it’s very important, I believe for innovation to occur. You need to have a very diverse and inclusive environment and culture within your organization. There was some of our faculty, some of my colleagues here at NC State did a study. I guess it’s a couple of years old now related to, how important are diversity and equity and inclusion for organizations and what they did in this study is they looked at, they identified organizations that had great practices in the diversity and inclusion space.

And then they looked at basically the number of patents that they had filed as well as the number of products and services launches they had. And what they found were that companies that had better diversity and inclusion practices actually had more patents. Launched more products and launched more services.

And I think that’s the case because you need different perspectives. You need to look at things, you know, it’s kind of what Cindy says. I never really thought of that as a rule-breaker, you know, accountants [00:19:00] try not to be rule-breakers per se. 

Cindy Eckert: Did it make you nervous? When did I say it?

Dean Frank Buckless: Yeah

Cindy Eckert: Did your palms start to sweat?

Dean Frank Buckless: But I wholeheartedly buy into what you were saying. Cause you know, rules are created for a reason. So you first have to understand what’s the goal. Why was that rule created? And now maybe there’s a better rule, right? There’s a better approach. And we have to keep saying that and I think having those different perspectives where you can actually discuss them really helps to make sure that you really look at it from multiple frames and you can come up with some pretty innovative creative approaches once you start doing that. So I just think that different perspectives really enhance your ability to innovate. So I think any organization that really wants to be an innovator, you better be doing everything you can to bring in a diverse and have an inclusive environment for that diverse group.

Cindy Eckert: I couldn’t agree more or you will be left behind. It is a business imperative to have different points of view at the table. You will never be the most successful organization if you have a group of people who all look at a problem through the same lens. 

Jenny Hammond: So to take that a step further, Cindy, specifically, talking about how you’ve built your companies, how you’ve kind of pivoted in your career.

What do you see as some of the biggest mistakes that young or even established entrepreneurs are making? 

Cindy Eckert: I have three. Okay. So not that I have thought about this. Here’s my three. So I think these are important. I think you mistake early praise as execution. That’s a huge mistake in entrepreneurship.

You go around, you tell everybody your friends, your family, they’re like, that’s a great idea. Why didn’t I think of it? That’s a great idea. And you become so enamored with this idea. You are certain you’ve already executed it. You have got to get it in the market. See that people will pay for it. Go to people who are not your friends and family, and actually have them give you feedback.

It’s as important to surround yourself with the detractors. As those who are singing your praises, it really is. I think, to be an exceptional entrepreneur and the antidote, I think is simple. We’ve already talked a lot about it. It’s about staying humble and curious. That’s a big piece. 

My second is you mistake, investment money as success. I deemed this, the shark tank culture. If we get the check, we have arrived. And actually when you get the check, the hard work is in front of you because make no mistake, your job is to deliver a return. For that investment. And if you always stay focused on that, if you stay focused on the value creation, you will be successful, but it’s not the money that is the validator, right? It’s again, the execution. And I think the last one, and this is just a philosophy for me in particular, is your mistake not making your fellow employees, owners. 

Jenny Hammond: Hmm. 

Cindy Eckert: The best thing you can do is to make your success a collective success. People are going to join you as you try to build an idea, build out a vision, then getting up every morning and then going to work is the difference of you being wildly successful or not reward them for that always and make them equally have skin in the game.

Jenny Hammond: Interesting. So knowing that you’ve seen some entrepreneurs succeed, maybe some that just aren’t ready per se, what could we be teaching our students here at Poole so that they are successful when they leave? 

Cindy Eckert: Well, let’s think about that. There’s no guarantee other than being, I think able to be resilient. I think what you could do that would be so valuable is really maybe demystify a couple of those entrepreneurship is really cool now. Like when I was, I was definitely not in the cool phase when people were talking about entrepreneurs when I first started.

But I think we have a group who’ve grown up watching Shark Tank. They see this opportunity, which I love this ability to really pave your own path. But I think ya got that take away some of the mess like money, money is the answer that that will be the VAT, all the validation you need. That early praise means success. I think it’s about the hard work day in and day out that really is gonna make all the difference. What I would say you know, very young is: get in the room with other people who are doing it. Right? And I think declare what you want. From what you want and your big kind of vision, say it out loud and you might be surprised how many people will help you.

So as you, as you teach, I think it’s all the things you’re already doing. Right? You’re pushing these students to be able to articulate their vision, to get out and work with members of the community and learn from them. I mean, you’re really I don’t know if I have anything I can add. I think you’re on the right course.

That way, at least that’s my observation of your students. 

Dean Frank Buckless: You know, and I will say, you know, of what you said, Cindy, that my observation has been, you know, I’ve always come in the room and asked with the people I’m working with, how can I help them be better? And I really think leading that way, they’re going to make you so much better.

You know, it’s just a by-product of it. And you know, and you’ve got that commitment to each other, and I think that’s important because you’re going to have tough times we know that. You know, and that’s why I do think resilience is, very important and don’t be afraid of failure. You know, you just gotta learn from it and move.

Because I don’t know anybody who’s really gotten to a high level that hasn’t had failures but they’ve gotten they’ve, you know, got up they’ve dusted off their pants and they kept moving forward and they didn’t quit. 

Cindy Eckert: I liked the, you know, we, we, in the culture of entrepreneurship these days, we celebrate failure.

Almost like a badge of honor especially the Silicon Valley crowd. And I would say, you know, for your students perspective, I’d love it to be less the celebration and more of the redefinition. Because failure is not trying. That’s real failure. Is not actually making the effort, the other outcomes, the fact that things don’t go your way, that’s life, you know, fewer things have gone my way that have been, you know, that have not gone my way versus have.

And I think that’s really kind of an important lesson in it, as opposed to, I think this, what has become more of an arrogance in entrepreneurship, which is, well, I got the big check and they could write me to cap the money anyway. Like it didn’t really matter. And I used it and it didn’t work, but I’m going to use it on my resume to get the next thing.  Like, none of that is, is a, you know, something bragging rights.

I would say it’s much more about you know, just the trying of it and the humility in it. And I think continuing to chase learning, so. 

Jenny Hammond: This question is for both of you you know, the tagline for NC State is think and do, and when you think about entrepreneurship in general. How much of it do you think is, think, and how much of it do you think is do?

Dean Frank Buckless: I mean, I guess I could start, you know, I think a lot more of it’s do. It’s in the execution. There’s a lot of great ideas out there, but they never really happened. And it’s because the individuals don’t know how to execute properly. 

Cindy Eckert: [00:26:19] I was going to cover my ears. So we, I didn’t know what your answer was just to see if we’d come up with the same.

I would say it’s 10% think 90% do. And I’m with you a hundred percent. No one ever became a great success. Just thinking about it. Now the most successful people I know they have a real vision of what they want to accomplish, but the reality is they got there because they got up day in and day out and they did the hard work to accomplish the ultimate vision. 90% do.

Dean Frank Buckless: [00:26:48] Yeah. And that, you know, in one way, I’d really, we’re trying to, you know, make sure our students that we want to make sure our students really can execute. They’re the implementers and the way we’re trying to do that, it’s really have our students working across campus. So it’s not just our students, you know, by themselves, but they’re working with our engineers with our science majors, with our biology,  you know,  every facet of our University because it is the execution again, that’s where the failures happen.

Right? 

Cindy Eckert: [00:27:14] For sure. 

Jenny Hammond: [00:27:16] So one last question. And we’ll start with Dean Buckless. What excites you most about entrepreneurship and the future of kind of what Poole is doing in the entrepreneurship space? 

Dean Frank Buckless: Well,  if you look at the pace of change in our world, it just keeps coming faster and faster.

You look at how technology is changing our world. How you know, the global environment is changing our world, the demographic shifts. So change has to be your mantra for success in the future. And that’s what entrepreneurship is all about, right? It’s about innovating and changing. So to me, that’s what really excites me.

I think, you know, I always tell our students. If you want to be successful, don’t be afraid to embrace change. And you know, so many times we’re a little afraid to do that, but it’s that changes what’s going to keep, well, it keeps me energized. I’ll be honest. I enjoy it. And that’s part of the reason I came to NC State and I know not everybody’s that way. That they’re, they’re always comfortable with change and I’m not always comfortable with it ’cause I don’t always have all the answers, but I do believe that if we don’t change, we will not be around for the future.

Jenny Hammond: And Cindy for you. I can barely keep up with you because you’re everywhere, but I’d love to know what’s next for you. What is there that you want to achieve that you haven’t already achieved? 

Cindy Eckert: My, my success is creating a billion dollars of wealth for other women. That’s my next definition of success.

And I would say, I want to answer the question you just asked the Dean because I want to answer it specifically to NC State. You know, what gets me excited is knowing that I’m going to watch the impact that so many of these students are going to have on this world. We’re going to see them on the cover of Fortune or Inc or Fast Company.

And then they’re going to come back and they’re going to mentor the next group to get there. And that’s what this is all about. It’s about creating a multiplier effect and I think your training the students so well to ultimately cultivate that, not just for themselves, but for the next group to follow.

Dean Frank Buckless: So I got to give a little plug based on that. There was, I guess it was in 2019, December Forbes came out with an article, you know, you know, how is North Carolina being so successful with startups? And, and they ended up saying the big driver was NC State. And you know, we in the last five years have created 170 businesses.

Generating 1.7 billion in capital. And I, I do also say that’s not enough, you know, how many jobs we created, how many people have we made better? You know, we need to get that information too. But yeah, I think we’re living our mission as a university doing that stuff. 

Jenny Hammond: Well, as we kind of wrap up, I thought it would be neat to talk about if you could give one piece of advice, if you had someone that showed up on your doorstep, Cindy and said, what’s one thing that you could tell me that could help me along my path of being an entrepreneur. I know you’ve said so many things today in this conversation have been great, but what would you think that key takeaway would be?

Cindy Eckert: Have the courage is really what it comes down to. It’s really about taking the swing and taking the big swing at what others may seem to deem impossible. Whether or not you get there, you took the swing. I mean, I’m I with my group, I had a really important moment in my career where my complete fate hung in the balance of the Food and Drug Administration.

And the night before I got their verdict, I threw a victory party for all of my team. Now, I didn’t know the outcome, did I, but I absolutely knew that we had done everything within our power to get there. And I think that’s my advice. If somebody showed up on my doorstep, it would be go all in, all in have the courage.

And you will be content with that outcome. Cause you’ll know you gave it your all. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Yeah. And it’s, you know, sometimes we think that again, that failure is just it’s career and life-destroying. It’s not, you’ll be better off even if you failed. 

Cindy Eckert: For sure.

Dean Frank Buckless: And I think we, sometimes our young people lose sight of that, especially in today’s world.

Cindy Eckert: Yeah. 

Jenny Hammond: Well, thank you both. And speaking of courage, Cindy, thank you for being courageous to come and be our inaugural guests in our first edition of our Poole podcast. Thank you, Dean Buckless, we’re excited about continuing this conversation and how industry and academics continue to work together to produce the best leaders, futures of tomorrow, including those budding entrepreneurs.

So thank you so much for your time today. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Thank you very much, much appreciated. 

Cindy Eckert: Thank you. My pleasure. 

Dean Frank Buckless: Thank you, Jenny, for hosting us. 

Jenny Hammond: Yeah!